Sex Education

I had a conversation recently with an administrator at our kids school about sex education that got me thinking about the messages we have taught our children over the years...

We teach them that sex is good and powerful, uniting people emotionally, and creating new human beings in the process. Sex, sexuality, and our sexual parts are not shameful, but rather, they are personal and private. It is something to be shared with the right people; trustworthy people. Obviously this includes parents and doctors in appropriate settings, and eventually it will include a wife, or a husband.

We have given them a full understanding of intercourse and the reproductive cycle. But we have not talked with them about specific sexual acts other than intercourse, except as those questions arose from our children's conversations with other children.  This is because those are things that are properly explored within the context of a wife and husband who are bound together for life.

We have taught them that all good things can be abused, including sexuality. We have taught them that our personal desires are often the enemy of our own health, and that this is true in the realm of sexuality as well. Sexual irresponsibility is destructive to the individual, and to those they are in relationship with. It is emotionally destructive to self and others, and it can be physically destructive to self and others.

We have explained to them that our culture enshrines the pursuit of personal desire as the highest ideal, and that this leads to much confusion and experimentation in many areas of life, particularly sexuality. Most of their peers will be having sex before marriage, and many of them will be experimenting with their sexual behaviors, their sexual identity, and even their gender in ways that will cause unnecessary pain.

We have taught them to be respectful of the choices, behaviors, struggles, and identities of other people, and that all people are to be treated with reverence simply because they are people. But we have also taught them that many of those choices, behaviors, struggles, and identities aren't healthy, and that they should avoid those behaviors personally.

We have talked with them briefly about sexual addiction and pornography. We have also explained more exhaustively how sex outside of marriage builds intimacy with someone other than your spouse, and that this will cause pain and confusion later on in life.  Extra-marital sex can also lead to unwanted pregnancy, disease, and even death.

We have taught them explicitly to wait until they are married to engage in sexual behavior, but we have also interacted with them quite a bit about the messages they receive from peers and cultural figures that contradict that wisdom. We have shared with them some of our own personal history with sexual behavior (both our mistakes and our successes).

We have also talked with them about grace and forgiveness, and how one mistake, or even a long pattern of mistakes, can be forgiven and overcome, no matter the consequences.

Ministry Pornography

Pornography is damaging to the soul for many reasons, one of them is the way in which it creates a false understanding of human sexual behavior and norms.  When people feed their sexual imagination with pornography they begin to think that the behaviors they see in the porn actors/actresses are the behaviors that they should engage in when they are having sex.

The problem is that porn stars aren't normal.  They aren't normal in many ways.

1. Normal people don't have sex in front of a camera.
2. Normal people's bodies don't look like that.
3. Normal people don't enjoy those acts (indeed, most porn stars don't actually enjoy all of the things they are paid to do on camera, they do them because they get paid, not because they like it!)

What is more, the camera doesn't capture everything.

1. It doesn't show you the toll pornography takes on the porn star's romantic life.
2. It doesn't show you the toll pornography takes on the porn star's sobriety.
3. It doesn't show you the toll pornography takes on the porn star's self worth.

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There is a parallel to draw to ministry.  (Actually there is a parallel to draw to any vocation.  The real parallel here is about how comparing ourselves to unhealthy people actually causes us to become unhealthy ourselves.  Or, how comparing ourselves to people that are in radically different situations than us can often lead to confusion and pain.)

In the church we love to hold up examples of church success that are the ministry equivalent of porn.  Looking to the mega churches to teach us how to do ministry is like looking to the porn star to learn how to make love to your spouse.  You are probably going to hurt yourself, hurt your spouse, and likely offend them in the process.  The same is true in the church; we are likely to damage people, and damage ourselves.

Lets make this clear.  The average church in America has 70 members.  If my stats are correct, churches with over a 1000 members represent less than 1% of American churches.  But we keep putting on ministry conferences, and teaching ministry classes, where the leaders are mega-church pastors, and the learners are normal church pastors.  This means the people we are putting on a pedestal have almost no common ground with the people we are asking them to teach.  They are engaged in radically different tasks.

At least as different as a married couple and a porn scene.  ...maybe even more different!

Sex and Hollywood

I thought this was interesting.

Ba-Boom-Boom Sunday Recap

We had quite an open dialogue...

There is certainly more conversation to be had on the subject. But it seemed like good progress...

We do have people who are clearly wrestling with what they think, but everyone seemed committed to an open conversation, and God's will. Just about everyone in the room participated in some way (and those who didn't were clearly attentive!) and many had some deep insight, or more often, expressed deep emotional concern.

I was quite blessed to be a part of such a dialogue!

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We spent a little time addressing the specific details of what scripture says about sex and homosexuality, but spent more time talking about how we should approach people, how we should approach scripture, and how we should approach God.

The focus was predominantly on homosexuality, and so was perhaps less practical for most people than a discussion of sex, gender, and sexuality more broadly...

We could easily spend several Sunday's on the topic!

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I did, however, have one of my friends suggest we intentionally include a voice from the affirming perspective. We had a few in the room who were ambiguous, and many who were of the conservative perspective. But no one who was arguing that same-gender sex acts aren't sinful.

It made me think about doing some sort of forum with two or three other pastors in town, but I don't know how public I wanna be on this topic!

;-)

It wouldn't be fun to be on record as a bigot in my neighborhood...

Ba-Boom-Boom Sunday

Two weeks ago a discussion broke out in church regarding the christian response to homosexuality and the homosexual community. It was too much for that Sunday (we were already in the midst of another discussion) so we settled on today to continue the discussion.

So I have a few introductory ideas, and some conversational ground rules, but will be opening this up for the church to discuss. I have some passages to look at if we need them, but won't be doing too much preaching...

Of course, I didn't realize we were scheduling our sex talk for Gay Pride Sunday.

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Yesterday morning I was met by a woman who was going out to 'do battle' against the Gay Pride parade, and she encouraged me to pray likewise.

I also have at least two evangelical pastor friends who are convinced that same gender sexual activity is not sinful.

I guess we need to be having this conversation...

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My new friend Japhet, from Tanzania, calls sex 'Ba-Boom-Boom.'

So 'Ba-Boom-Boom Sunday' here we come!

(I'll let you know how it goes)

Sex and the Radical Middle

We really have allowed ourselves to be polarized into one of two completely ignorant camps on sexual ethics...

The traditional camp that claims to know what redeemed humanity looks like, but that knowledge somehow fails to communicate what our genitals are for!

...and the laissez faire approach of our culture that seems to know everything about what to do with your genitals, but doesn't really seem to understand what a human being is for!

Training Wheels Pt VIII

So lets take a look at a few specifics...

Jesus Himself set aside, as we have seen, the food laws laid down in the Law. He additionally set aside much of the Law pertaining to ceremonial cleanliness; He routinely came into contact with those who were considered unclean, and proclaimed that His cleanness made them clean, not the other way around.

He did, however, affirm much of the Law in its dealings with human ethical behavior surrounding economic, sexual, and interpersonal behavior. In fact Jesus took these portions of the Law and made them much more deeply binding on His followers, precisely because the issue is not obedience to the Law, but learning to become the kind of people who would fulfill the Law without trying to; who would not murder, cheat, or steal, regardless of the existence of the Law.

So what do we do with new claims to do with the Law what Jesus did?

Do we allow Jesus' innovation because He is Jesus? Do we ban others' innovation because they are not Jesus? Or are we each and every one of us expected to do what Jesus did with respect to the Law?

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A perfect example is the sexual ethic. In recent decades we have heard very unique voices within the Church. Throughout the history of Christian thought the sexual ethic has been quite homogenous: sexual pleasure is, and should remain, a culmination and a reflection of the vow to lifelong partnership between a husband and a wife. Throughout history there have been dissenting voices from outside the Church, however, we now see a growing minority within the church advocating that we set aside this clear consensus of Christian teaching on sexuality, and that we do so for precisely the reasons (according to these voices) that Jesus encouraged us to set aside certain portions of the law in His day.

I disagree with these voices, and here is why.

1) The traditional sexual ethic is consistent with agape love, the love that has grown up under the tutelage of the Law, and then come out into its own maturity. The inconsistency claimed by these advocates (if we love people we will allow them to express their love, and so we must change the sexual ethic) is based on a notion of love that is rooted in popular culture and has grown up under the tutelage of that culture, in many ways in opposition to the wisdom offered by the Law.

2) While it is my contention that God desires for us to come to a place of maturity wherein we are able to judge for ourselves where 'Love fulfills the Law' prudence demands that we recognize the primacy of Jesus' judgment! His words should carry more weight than our own. What seems wise to our minds must be set aside whenever it contradicts His wisdom.

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We Christians have disparaged the Law, in some ways this is consistent with New Testament teachings, but in other ways we have gone too far. The Law is not evil, nor is keeping it evil; quite the opposite, the Law is good, and keeping it is what God desires. The evil is in us. It is in how we approach the Law, how we use it, or more precisely how we misuse and abuse it. The Law was never intended as a means for making men righteous, but rather as boundary markers pointing towards righteousness. The Law is God's tool, and we must use it consistent with His purposes for it. As the Messiah's people it still has a function for us, albeit muted since the coming of the Messiah. It serves for us, the purpose of providing the backdrop to Jesus' teachings. Like students who occasionally read through their old Algebra text to be clear about what it is that their Calculus professor is teaching, or read through their old American History texts to gain understanding into contemporary affairs.

More Homosexuality Stuff

Hello,

New to your blog, referred by a friend for this article in particular…

I understand the desire to treat individuals who are homosexually (or otherwise) oriented as valued human beings. I applaud it! I pastor a very small, very young church in the center of a small city with a significantly vocal homosexual community right in the neighborhood where we live, play, work, and worship. Some of these wonderful people are joined to Christ and to us…

However, valuing people should lead us to encourage them to submit to God. If we are encouraging people to engage in whatever activities they happen to like, we may be making them temporarily happy, but we are not valuing them.

The real question is not, ‘Do some Christians really enjoy homosexual activity (or are they really oriented in such a way) while simultaneously maintaining faith in Christ?’ This is implied by the Siker quote. The reality is that I know of ‘real’ Christians who engage in all sorts of activity condemned by Scripture, many are convinced that they are not sinning in doing so! For example, how many American Christians live in conspicuous wealth and consumption, with little or no regard to the plight of others around the world? Pointing to Christians who do such things is not the same as a convincing argument that such things are consistent with the Christ to whom we are joined…

Which is, of course, the reason why we turn to the Scriptures-in-Community as a source of God’s definition of humanity. Your post, obviously, does this; attempting to understand what God has to say about the subject.

Which brings us to the main question, and the main contention I have with what was posted:

Your post typifies the conversations we Christians have on many topics, and typifies additionally our usual approach to Scripture. (I don’t mean to come across as pugilistic but if you’ve been blogging for five years you understand that this medium is given to misunderstanding on an emotional level, so understand that I say what I say in the hope of hearing your response, not simply to voice my own ’superior’ opinions.)

We approach Scripture as if it were a collection of timeless truths and lists of do’s and dont’s that somehow God accidentally gave us in the form of narratives, lyrical poetry, prophetic visions, ancient municipal codes, etc. and so we get about rearranging the Bible into the book God should have given us.

As an aside here is a great article on Scripture…

On this particular topic, this proves singularly problematic; the conversation on homosexuality is dominated by Scriptures that reference homosexuality directly. Rarely does the conversation ever engage the general arc of Scripture as a whole. If it were to do so, the dialogue would be taking place along a very different spectrum. For example, why are Genesis 1-2, Ephesians 5, and Matthew 19 excluded from the scriptures discussed? If we understand the story of God and Man, it becomes a very different discussion.

Shouldn’t our ethical questions be framed more in terms of ‘What is God up to, and how do we fit into it? Instead of, ‘What can we get away with and still call ourselves Christian?’ It is my contention that if we take the former approach we will have to admit that Scripture defines sexuality in extremely positive ways, and that our approach (looking for negative injunctions against certain actions) blinds us to the simple truth that God has defined human sexuality in terms of a deep abiding commitment, a co-mingling of spirit, mind, life, and body, between a man and a woman.

A final point of agreement, we must approach this from a pastoral perspective, recognizing the personal realities involved and the questions behind the question. It is for this reason that our community regularly encourages people to look to Jesus as the definition of their humanity, and allows ethical decisions to flow out of that reality. We do not shy away from talking about situational ethics, but that conversation is always superseded by discipleship unto Jesus. Ethics flowing out of identity, not the other way around.

There are so many other points to be made (the proportionality of Scriptural commentary on homosexuality in relationship to other issues, the need for repentance toward the homosexual community, the endorsement of healthy sexuality as opposed to the condemnation of unhealthy sexuality, outlining sexual sin in more holistic ways that evaluate the union of husband and wife, etc.), but I am sure I have already bored you!

Interested in your responses!

(And a quick plug, on the subject, for Rob Bell’s book ‘Sex God’)

More Thoughts

The following is from an online conversation I had with a friend of a friend:

I would still love to hear you respond to my thoughts, although I understand that you probably (like I do) have more pressing things to think about. I feel like the debate on this issue is consistently sidetracked and does not deal with the real issue at hand. So here are a couple of points if you can find time to respond to:

Biology is a Distraction
…as it is corrupt…

I agree with Mr. Williams above: “The findings of Kinsey about the greyscale nature of sexual orientation are valid biologically, but do not meaningfully inform the praxis of our faith commitments.”

While (I hope) all christians can agree that the current state of human nature is an important point of consideration that must be weighed into the conversation, it is ultimately a distraction to argue about the ‘what and where’ of the locus of homosexual desire. We don’t care why/how people come to desire other people’s possessions when we condemn theft, nor do we care about the motivations behind adultery when assessing it’s morality (of course we acknowledge the reality of those desires, and even acknowledge the inability of individuals to control those desires or their natural trajectory into behavior; isn’t this the point Scripture is making when it speaks of ’slavery to sin?’)

The point is precisely that human nature is corrupt; arguments from the reality of human desire should not prevent us from deeming certain acts and states as sinful; the very need for the redemption of human nature is exactly its state as fundamentally out of sync with God’s beauty and purpose.

Jesus is Lord
…not personal desire…

As you point out one of the common critiques is “that we’re allowing culture to dictate our understanding of scripture.” But it is even more insidious than this, it is that we are allowing our personal desire to do so.

This is, of course, true of all people, not just homosexuals; and is even true of all people in the realm of sexuality. I fight with my wife about sex. That is just as much an elevation of my own sexual desire above God’s beautiful reality as is homosexuality; my contention is that both are perversion. Heterosexual sex is not the goal! (Replace heterosexual sex with anything else, sobriety, tithing, reading scripture, not cussing, praying, etc. depending on the setting.) The goal is being redefined by Jesus, the true man, allowing His humanity to become the source and scope of ours.

This, of course, comes dangerously close to threatening our identity. But what else did we think Jesus meant when he explains ‘no one can be my disciple unless they follow me to the place of execution,’ or Paul when he speaks of being crucified with Christ? It is our identity that is precisely the problem! Both for the Gentile and for the Jew, for the Gay and the Straight, the Virtuous and the Foul, etc.

At the center of Paul’s theology we find the phrase ‘in Christ’ and it is this that must become for us, the center of our theology and praxis. If we operate from this place, we are Christian, if we operate from some other place, we are not.

It is for precisely this reason that the homosexual community may perhaps have greater theological insight than the straight community; perhaps the better question is not why are so few homosexual people willing to follow a Christ who ‘bids them come and die?’, but rather why are so many heterosexual people claiming to follow Christ without dying?

Jesus is Lord, even of my sexuality.

The real question needs to be what does God want?, as opposed to what do I want? Which is why we turn to Scripture. (I would add, Scripture, properly enacted and interpreted in community.)

The Answer Book
…the problem with systematic theology…

You acknowledge that “one of the many critiques of those of us who are affirming of LGBT persons is that we are completely disregarding scripture.” I am simply reiterating that critique, however, I do so in a different vein of thinking that I really desire to hear a thoughtful and engaging response to.

“One of the strengths of Rogers’s book is that he actively engages with Scripture all throughout his book.” I am obviously dealing with your presentation of his material and not directly with his book, but, quite simply put, I am not convinced. As I said in another thread, I do not see Roger’s dealing with Scripture, but rather dealing with isolated passages, removed from their context, and ignoring the general trend of Scripture as a whole. The story of God’s Creation and Covenant, the story of Exodus and Atonement, the story of Redemption and New Creation.

“However, Rogers shows that the interpretations of the few passages typically used to speak of the sinfulness of homosexuality are simply incorrect interpretations.” What I need to see instead is someone starting from the point of God’s activity and working through the significance of that in the creation of gender. I need to see (as Paul continually does with ethical questions) the natural outcome of being ‘in Christ;’ not simply trying to figure out what is right or wrong, but what is Christ!

There is a paradigmatic difference between reading the Scriptures as a ‘Cosmic Answer Book,’ by thumbing through trying to find to the ‘Homosexual Question;’ and allowing Scripture to ‘read us,’ by defining our reality for us. Systematic analysis of Scripture is helpful, but must be kept in check!

I need to see the process mapped out for me by which someone could come to Scripture seeking to understand God, and come away with an endorsement for personal sexual fulfillment. My contention is that the debate has been framed in inappropriate ways by both sides, and has devolved into looking to Scripture for an endorsement of what both sides wanted to find.

Conservative Bigotry
…if you disagree with me you are a Nazi…

You are obviously not saying anything remotely this obtuse I just like to exaggerate for effect! (And I wouldn’t personally claim the Conservative label without some real clarification) However what you do say “…spend some time actually getting to know someone who is gay,” implies that if we loved gay people we would not say that homosexuality is a sin; and conversely we only say homosexuality is a sin because we do not love homosexual people throughout the course of our day-to-day lives.

This isn’t true.

I have several relationships with gay men and women, most of whom know my stand on Scripture, none of whom are offended by me. One of them is walking out a commitment to Christ (that he believes includes a denial of his homosexual practice and identity) in the midst of our community. We call each other ‘friend and brother’ and this man is at my home several times a week.

It is precisely my love for them, and my commitment to them, that compels me to preach Christ’s pre-eminence over and above their sexual desire, and even more, over and above their own identity (homosexual or otherwise).

McLaren on Homosexuality

Identity and Obedience: Homosexuality and Jesus pt II

A major stumbling block for homosexual people is the awareness that God is asking them to deny a piece of themselves; God is not accepting all of what they are. In fact, this is an assault on the core identity of some individuals. The very thing that has become the center of personhood, the core identifying trait, the seat of identity, is rejected by God.

If we are to come to terms with the issue, the Church must understand this reality!

To the heterosexual: what if God saw you this way? What if you were expected to admit the sin of being attracted to the opposite sex, leave your spouse, and live a celibate life? Would you follow such a demanding Jesus?

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This, however, doesn't go nearly far enough, although it certainly goes farther than many heterosexual individuals are willing to go.

A homosexual person in many ways has a deeper understanding of the Christian life than many Christians. The death to self, and the relinquishing of identity required of those who chose Jesus is as readily understood by the average homosexual person as it is not readily understood by the average Christian.

The point of Christianity is neither heterosexuality, nor sexual purity, but rather life in Christ. The real issue for us as Christians is not sexual propriety, but rather an obedient life that emanates from an identification with, and identity in Christ. It is not just homosexual people who must endure the 'assault on their core identity,' but rather this assault is what repentance from evil and confidence in God is all about for all humans! God does, indeed, see YOU this way, the very core of your identity is rejected by God, and He wants to give you a new one!

As though God's primary goal for our lives is that we would be sexually stimulated by the right gender... the scope of His plan is so much more grand!!!!

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Indeed for all people regardless of sexual orientation 'the very thing that has become the center of personhood, the core identifying trait, the seat of identity, is rejected by God.'

Homosexuality as an issue is a pertinent place to ask the question, 'Do I have my earplugs in?'



The Spirit is speaking, are you listening?

Identity and Obedience: Homosexuality and Jesus

I have happened across several conversations recently on the topic of homosexuality and the Church. While you may find yourself in a place on this issue where no depth of thought is forcing itself upon you, I would encourage you to engage more deeply on this topic as I see a wealth of understanding and life to be found at this precise place of trial. (As CS Lewis would say, 'you expect to find game hiding behind cover.') If the Church will actively engage culture motivated by the Spirit of Christ, informed by Scripture, then we will find Paul's childbirth metaphor to be true. This is a controversy that will bring much pain and discomfort, but if we will push through it and engage with it, we will find that they are birthing pains, new life is coming...

I recently had a conversation with a Christian who is in a long term monogamous homosexual relationship. This person asked me what I thought about homosexuality...

I must confess, my answer was fraught with uncomfortably long pauses, and much confusion about how to communicate what I believe...

Monogamy

So my friends were talking about monogamy at work yesterday and I thought I would blog a little bit on this subject. I listened to what they had to say and all day yesterday my mind pondered thoughts about monogamy and what I agreed with or disagreed with. For the sake of this blog monogamy and polygamy are mostly in reference to marriage but not necesarily.

I feel like monogamy is a noble thing. I feel like anybody can go out and screw around with multiple people. In fact I feel like mostly everyone does. I feel like chosing to be in a monogamous relationship is actually a noble thing. I feel like it all really boils down to rights and entitlement here in our country. I have the right to be comfortable. I have the right to be happy. I have the right to do basically whatever I feel like at any given moment. I have the right to do what feels good and not necesarily whats right. I feel like we here in America aren't willing to deal with our issues or our stuff. You hate your old car, so you get a new one. You hate your old job, so you get a new one. You wife or husband just ain't doing it for you any more so you get a new one. Heaven forbid that you talk things out. Heaven forbid that you are uncomfortable for any length of time. Heaven forbid that I am uncomfortable for any length of time. I am an American too.

I feel like choosing to be with a person exclusivly and also choosing to have other partners or relationships at the same time is selfish. I feel like it is a lack of willingness to commit. Duh that's obvious, I know. But I feel like it is an unsaid truth. I feel like as a society we are very unwilling to commit to most things. You know what commitment involves don't you? It involves getting real. It involves putting down your comfort, your "rights" for a certain lenth of time and really just face the facts about what you are commiting to. Marriage is no longer a commitment. Relationships are no longer commitments. I feel like we were created to be with one person only. If we were created to mate like animals there wouldn't be such emotions attached to having sex. If we were made to just be recycled through many people then it wouldn't hurt when our significant other moved on and we still loved them.

10 Years Ago

Click the title link to read an AP article about the murder of Matthew Shepard.

My wife and I were both in Laramie, attending the University, when this event happened. We were both there for the crazy protesters and counter-protesters; the media circus that followed the murder, another one following the trial a year later, and then another one two years later when they were filming the movie.

This should be a point of reflection and repentance for the Church.

Whenever we point fingers at 'them' we help to create an atmosphere where these kinds of brutalities can happen. The reality is that people engaged in homosexual behavior are no more or less broken than the pastor who calls them an 'abomination.' The reality is that homosexual acts are no more a perversion than a man having sex with his wife while fantasizing about another woman.

We are all created in God's image, and we are all stained with sin. We are breathing Icons of the Creator, but we are cracked.

We are all familiar with infamous Christians who live double lives. Roundly condemning activities publicly that they are covertly and habitually engaging in. Recently a famous Christian leader who was routinely making comments about homosexuality was outed by the male prostitute he had been having a three year relationship with.

I am more than willing to give this man the benefit of the doubt, his sincerity is not what I want to question, rather, I want to ask, 'how did this happen?' If this man had come forward with his struggles, if the Church did not create a 'super-sin' out of this particular issue, if the Church would place more emphasis on Jesus and less on 'good looks,' if the Church would be the first place where sin was able to be confessed instead of the last, if, if, if...

Reflection, and repentance.

It must begin in the Church.

Sexuality

Ours is a sexually charged culture:

For many people sex is about a search for something; identity, conquest, validation, power, self-worth, connection...

And so, we run from relationship to relationship, looking for some degree of depth and significance.

Perhaps, however, sexuality is better understood differently:

Instead of sex being a search, what if sexuality is supposed to be the expression of something that we have found?

A culmination.

A reflection.

What if sex is an outward enactment of a deeper reality?

What if sex is spiritual?

What would be the significance of understanding sexuality as a part of God’s grand scheme for the universe?

No Easy Answers...

So I read this interview with NT Wright about the recent Lambeth Conference (a once every ten years, gathering of worldwide Anglican Bishops to address issues the global Anglican Communion is facing) which had been addressing the issues surrounding the potential schism in the ranks of Anglicans worldwide.

Anglicans in Africa and elsewhere have been appalled at the decision by the US Episcopal Church to go ahead with the consecration of Gene Robinson as a Bishop in spite of appeals by Anglican leadership to refrain. Robinson is an openly practicing homosexual. The central issue for the conference was Church discipline, Church community, and the basis for the communions remaining whole; of course, this also touched very much on the issue of homosexuality itself (although, the wider world, both secular and Church, has seemed to act as though the sexual issue was the primary one).

After reading the article I ended up following links and reading various things...

The above link to the Wiki-entry on Gene Robinson, and this article. If you only read one of the links in this post read the last one (gettingit.com)

I had just had a conversation yesterday with a teenage girl, pregnant, homosexual, and deeply disturbed at the Church and the way it treats people; she was referencing the science that has proven homosexuality to be rooted in genes, and the history that shows Jesus as a man who had impregnated Mary Magdalene.

I read much more than the above articles, but I think the above is enough to give you the flavor of what I was ruminating about...

...so:

What does Scripture say to someone in Cheryl Chase's shoes?

How would various outcomes in scientific findings about human sexuality effect our understanding of what the Bible teaches about human understanding?

What should a pastor do with someone in Mrs. Chase's shoes? ...and how does that answer impinge on the issue of homosexuality?

Does the typical answer the Church gives on the question of homosexuality do justice to the uniqueness of the issue?

Questions abound!

Answers, perhaps, are more ambiguous...

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What I do know is this:

Pat answers are more about the self-image of the person giving them, than the person in need of wisdom, or the god who is said to endorse them.

Humble and genuine concern for the welfare of others should be the primary motive in offering wisdom.

"Jesus is Lord," is the proclamation of the gospel.
"I wanna have heterosexual intercourse," is not the proclamation of the gospel.

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If we can lovingly point all people to Jesus as the true King of the world, and encourage them to allow Him to become that for them, all the while acknowledging that this requires a death to self and death to sin for all people (primarily for us as His disciples and does not single out homosexual people in this respect), then I think we have made the first step down the right path...

...if, however, we are pointing to heterosexuality instead of Jesus; or singling out homosexuals as somehow fundamentally "other" than the rest of humanity; or if we are not speaking of Jesus in terms of absolute surrender; or failing to communicate that identity is found in Christ and no other place; or if we are bolstering our own position at the expense of people on the outside; we are walking a path that will lead to our own ruin, the abandonment of the very purpose for which God has given Himself to us, and the ruin of others.

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I'd love some comments on this one. It continues to be a very raw issue in Buffalo.

SEX

Thought's about sex through the eyes of a 21 year old virgin.

I love the blogs Steve has posted having to do with sexuality, I will reference some of the things he says in his blog. I am not an expert on any of this. I am just in a process of learning.

Here it goes!

I am blessed. I am blessed that before I was a Christian I didn't have sex. Growing up in a world where everyone just wants to be accepted, I managed to escape finding my acceptance in having premiscuous sex. I did have my sexual issues and like most people it did consume my thoughts. I did dress to "impress" and such, but by the loving grace of God I never had sex. I am glad and excited that when I get married I can give myself completely to my husband, in such a way, the way it should be. Many people have not been able to do this. But the thing is, my view of sex is still tainted by what the world speaks of this topic. Even people who have never had sex still need sexual healing. I still have a hard time believeing that something so abused and dirty can be viewed as an act of worship. God is sadden by that statement, because he created sex for a husband and wife, and it was good and a beautiful thing. Then the serpent came and Eve started to think "What if Adam doesn't find me attractive? Maybe I should put on some make up and dress scandalous." And Adam was like, "Is she getting all dressed up for another man?" Okay so maybe it didn't happen quite that way. But I think what everyone is really looking for is that deep reconnection that Steve was talking about. I desire deep reconnection, reconnection to God and if he wills (which I'm not going to lie, I hope he does) with another human being. I think that God allows us to marry so that we can also taste a little bit of his love for us and so that we can give love back.
Sex has been so twisted. Something so simple and so beautiful now can be done with more than one person, you can go so far before you "actually" do it, you can do it with men or women, boys or girls, you can do it for money or drugs, you can pay back favors with it, you can get a promotion with it, you can do it with however many people you want to in one night, or life time, you can watch it, you can do it with someone without even knowing their name. I grew up in this society, and like most people media was my sex-ed teacher (hence all the examples of it). So how I have viewed sex came from that. Scary, awkward, emotionless, loveless, something everyone does the rest who don't are shunned or gay, shameful, lustful, and the list goes on. Up until probably this last year (since moving in with 2 married couples) this view has probably stayed this way. After a few talks with the married ladies in my life I have heard more about what it should be. Loving, beautiful, worshipful ( I still don't get that one too much ) a gift and I believe that God will heal the areas that have been tainted by this world. I belive that there are men out there that can be trusted, I have even witnessed these men in loving relationships with their wives. I have witnessed these single men doing everything they can to keep their hearts and minds pure. I have witnessed women willing to wait till their wedding day to even partake in a little kiss. I have witnessed women call off relationships for the sake of just being with the Lord. I have witnessed married couples lay their lives down for each other. These are all beautiful things.
So what to say now? Now that I have witnessed the good things? I guess I can only encourage people my age to make the same choices that I have. People younger or older than, gay, straight, whatever. God is bigger that this issue, he is bigger than peoples sexual preferences, he's bigger than the relationships that are consumed with lust.

|seks|

commodity |kəˈmäditē| noun ( pl. -ties) a raw material or primary agricultural product that can be bought and sold, such as copper or coffee. • a useful or valuable thing, such as water or time.

Sex is a commodity. While the rise and fall of oil and gas continues sex is rapidly becoming cheaper and cheaper everyday. Sarcasm is really the only way I know how to handle the topic of sex and the same within the context to which I would like to talk about it. I will try to refrain from using all the sarcastic things I have stored up in my brain. Sex is no longer about love and commitment; it's about having it your way, wherever and whenever you want it. You can confuse sex and Burger King. They basically have the same slogan: "Have it your way." People even talk about it as if it were a hamburger or going out to grab a bite to eat. " I think I am going to get laid tonight." " I think I am going out to get a hamburger tonight." It's sick and I am not referring to just men. Women are just as capable in the area of cheapening sex as men are. It sucks and it's not fair that this is how it has become. A consumer product. We even have names for our genitals. Nicknames that dehumanize our human and God-created body parts. As weird as it is to say it our beautiful parts. They are ugly and vulgar names, that to me are upsetting and I hate to think of them. I will spare the names because even the sexually healthiest and purest people know all of the derogatory names. It disgusts me. I have come away from a few movies that have left me wanting to spend the rest of my life celibate than to ever experience the brainless, loveless sex that billions of people experience everyday.

I am sure that everyone that reads this blog has heard this by now but I will reiterate it anyway.

In certain countries you can purchase a 5 year old little girl for 5$. That is the going rate. There are women and children, right at this very minute, that are being smuggled into our "Christian Nation" only to be bought at a cheap price. Right now someone is being forced to do sexual acts against their will. Someone at this moment is being forced to give up their virginity to a person that will never ever be capable of loving them. By the way this is probably happening in the city you live it.

Sex has become so accessible you can find it ANYWHERE you like. We have become so demanding of "our needs" our wants. Sex isn't even between one man and one woman anymore. It can be anyway you want it. Have it your way. In fact why not just buy somebody that you can just have sex with whenever you want and it doesn't really matter how you treat them because they are from a foreign country. They don't really speak our language and don't really understand what is going on.

Rape speaks all languages. Suffering. Pain. Humiliation. They are all universal languages.

The thing is that everyone has a name. Everyone has a personality. People with names and unique, God-given personalities are being destroyed.

I am just so angry and so disgusted by all of this. My brain has been rolling around sarcastic things about sex for the last two days. That won't help anything. This world needs Jesus. This world needs healing. Sexual healing. I need sexual healing and the thing is I have never had sex! I guess that most people really haven't ever experienced sex either. Even the word "sex" it seems so cheap. Tons of people who have had sex have really experienced selfishness, and short lived pleasure, they have really experienced lust and pride, shame and domination. They have never really experienced what sex was intended to be. I can't take much more exploitation of one of God's beautiful gifts. I can't take much more of the stories I hear on a weekly basis from girls in my life saying that they weren't loved by some man.

Basically this whole sex thing all boils down to a few different things:

1. Sin

Oh wait that is pretty much it. I guess then there is a few different solutions:

1. Jesus

Oh wait He is the only solution. God please heal us. Please move in this country. Move in all of the nations of the world. Please God end human trafficking. Restore to this world the gift of sexuality in it's purest most beautiful form and show us, your church, Lord what we can do to partner with you in this.

Now if you will excuse me, I am going go buy 50 shares in the sex industry, it's such a hot commodity and at such a cheap price it would be a shame not to.

Homosexual Insight

The following is an interaction I had with a friend of a friend:

I would still love to hear you respond to my thoughts, although I understand that you probably (like I do) have more pressing things to think about. I feel like the debate on this issue is consistently sidetracked and does not deal with the real issue at hand. So here are a couple of points if you can find time to respond to:

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Biology is a Distraction
...as it is corrupt...

I agree with Mr. Williams above: "The findings of Kinsey about the greyscale nature of sexual orientation are valid biologically, but do not meaningfully inform the praxis of our faith commitments."

While (I hope) all christians can agree that the current state of human nature is an important point of consideration that must be weighed into the conversation, it is ultimately a distraction to argue about the 'what and where' of the locus of homosexual desire. We don't care why/how people come to desire other people's possessions when we condemn theft, nor do we care about the motivations behind adultery when assessing it's morality (of course we acknowledge the reality of those desires, and even acknowledge the inability of individuals to control those desires or their natural trajectory into behavior; isn't this the point Scripture is making when it speaks of 'slavery to sin?')

The point is precisely that human nature is corrupt; arguments from the reality of human desire should not prevent us from deeming certain acts and states as sinful; the very need for the redemption of human nature is exactly its state as fundamentally out of sync with God's beauty and purpose.

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Jesus is Lord
...not personal desire...

As you point out one of the common critiques is "that we’re allowing culture to dictate our understanding of scripture." But it is even more insidious than this, it is that we are allowing our personal desire to do so.

This is, of course, true of all people, not just homosexuals; and is even true of all people in the realm of sexuality. I fight with my wife about sex. That is just as much an elevation of my own sexual desire above God's beautiful reality as is homosexuality; my contention is that both are perversion. Heterosexual sex is not the goal! (Replace heterosexual sex with anything else, sobriety, tithing, reading scripture, not cussing, praying, etc. depending on the setting.) The goal is being redefined by Jesus, the true man, allowing His humanity to become the source and scope of ours.

This, of course, comes dangerously close to threatening our identity. But what else did we think Jesus meant when he explains 'no one can be my disciple unless they follow me to the place of execution,' or Paul when he speaks of being crucified with Christ? It is our identity that is precisely the problem! Both for the Gentile and for the Jew, for the Gay and the Straight, the Virtuous and the Foul, etc.

At the center of Paul's theology we find the phrase 'in Christ' and it is this that must become for us, the center of our theology and praxis. If we operate from this place, we are Christian, if we operate from some other place, we are not.

It is for precisely this reason that the homosexual community may perhaps have greater theological insight than the straight community; perhaps the better question is not why are so few homosexual people willing to follow a Christ who 'bids them come and die?', but rather why are so many heterosexual people claiming to follow Christ without dying?

Jesus is Lord, even of my sexuality.

The real question needs to be what does God want?, as opposed to what do I want? Which is why we turn to Scripture. (I would add, Scripture, properly enacted and interpreted in community.)

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The Answer Book
...the problem with systematic theology...

You acknowledge that "one of the many critiques of those of us who are affirming of LGBT persons is that we are completely disregarding scripture." I am simply reiterating that critique, however, I do so in a different vein of thinking that I really desire to hear a thoughtful and engaging response to.

"One of the strengths of Rogers’s book is that he actively engages with Scripture all throughout his book." I am obviously dealing with your presentation of his material and not directly with his book, but, quite simply put, I am not convinced. As I said in another thread, I do not see Roger's dealing with Scripture, but rather dealing with isolated passages, removed from their context, and ignoring the general trend of Scripture as a whole. The story of God's Creation and Covenant, the story of Exodus and Atonement, the story of Redemption and New Creation.

"However, Rogers shows that the interpretations of the few passages typically used to speak of the sinfulness of homosexuality are simply incorrect interpretations." What I need to see instead is someone starting from the point of God's activity and working through the significance of that in the creation of gender. I need to see (as Paul continually does with ethical questions) the natural outcome of being 'in Christ;' not simply trying to figure out what is right or wrong, but what is Christ!

There is a paradigmatic difference between reading the Scriptures as a 'Cosmic Answer Book,' by thumbing through trying to find to the 'Homosexual Question;' and allowing Scripture to 'read us,' by defining our reality for us. Systematic analysis of Scripture is helpful, but must be kept in check!

I need to see the process mapped out for me by which someone could come to Scripture seeking to understand God, and come away with an endorsement for personal sexual fulfillment. My contention is that the debate has been framed in inappropriate ways by both sides, and has devolved into looking to Scripture for an endorsement of what both sides wanted to find.

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Conservative Bigotry
...if you disagree with me you are a Nazi...

You are obviously not saying anything remotely this obtuse I just like to exaggerate for effect! (And I wouldn't personally claim the Conservative label without some real clarification) However what you do say "...spend some time actually getting to know someone who is gay," implies that if we loved gay people we would not say that homosexuality is a sin; and conversely we only say homosexuality is a sin because we do not love homosexual people throughout the course of our day-to-day lives.

This isn't true.

I have several relationships with gay men and women, most of whom know my stand on Scripture, none of whom are offended by me. One of them is walking out a commitment to Christ (that he believes includes a denial of his homosexual practice and identity) in the midst of our community. We call each other 'friend and brother' and this man is at my home several times a week.

It is precisely my love for them, and my commitment to them, that compels me to preach Christ's pre-eminence over and above their sexual desire, and even more, over and above their own identity (homosexual or otherwise).

Homosexuality

Some thoughts and questions…

Loved the distinction between scriptural uses “establish/generate,” that is a very helpful and insightful distinction that gives some flesh to the “exegesis/eisegesis” distinction.

I am intrigued by the notion that Christian homophobia has more to do with cultural roots, than with scriptural mandate (this seems clear to me in our present context, however, I am less familiar with other contexts).

I do find it very problematic, however, to use the term ‘homophobia’ to refer specifically to those who call homosexual acts immoral. I find that use of terminology to be confusing (whether this is intentional or not is a point for debate, but it does seem to me to be an intentional strategy). It seems only prudent to distinguish between those who dislike, disparage, or discriminate against, and those who engage in deep friendship and partnership while simultaneously holding to the position that homosexual activity is unethical. Would you agree that this distinction should be made? Or would you lump both groups under the heading ‘homophobe?’

I am a little confused at the statement that there are no clear condemnations of homosexual activity in Scripture. I agree that it (homosexual activity) is far from central, and in fact quite peripheral to the narrative arc of God’s activity within history, but it seems to me that to claim what Jennings claims is not counter-intuitive, but rather simply inaccurate. God’s primary concern, His most cherished hope for humanity, is hardly that all people engage in heterosexual married sex. How banal! However, it seems to my reading of Scripture, that a life submitted to God’s activity would be moved in directions other than homoeroticism. I’d love to hear your response to that…

FInally, it seems to me that the claims of an integral role for homoeroticism in the Biblical story are simply an example of the homosexual community engaging in the same eisegesis that the fundamentalists are accused of…

To read David and Jonathon as homosexual lovers is to expose oneself as having never had deep, non-erotic, friendship. I have kissed a male friend in the midst of a deeply fervent time of prayer together. I have given my heart to other men in ways perhaps as deep as to my wife and children. I have also actually tried to see another man as in any way sexually arousing, and that attempt really made me laugh! I don’t have that desire (although we could enter into the nature/nurture conversation on that point…)

Again, I would love some feedback from you. This is clearly a topic of great concern to the future of the Church. I hope and pray that the way forward preserves a true integrity of faith in Jesus, and yet leaves behind the alienation that has at times and places come with spiritual fervor in His name. Thanks…